This week's podcast guest is one of the most recognizable & authoritative squirrels in the THORChain community, @TehSlaw (aka "Cole").
This week's podcast guest is one of the most recognizable & authoritative squirrels in the THORChain community, @TehSlaw (aka "Cole").
Drawing from a deep well of insights and experiences from his decades-long career in traditional finance - first as a research analyst on Wall St., to later starting his own investment bank - Cole consistently provides the deepest, most insightful takes on THORChain and developments in its surrounding ecosystem.
In this conversation, we discuss:
The conversation was a blast - and we have plenty more to come! Stay tuned for upcoming interviews with LP University's Baloney Bones, Archon & Runemir from Qi Capital, Emile from Xdefi Wallet, and more to follow :)
0xNguyen: We're gonna kick things off with like a more casual community show, we're going to talk to members of the THORChain community. And today, I have the pleasure of being joined by my friend, Cole Slaw. Cole, thank you for joining us.
TehSlaw: Thanks, Alan. Happy to be here. Happy to start this off with you.
0xNguyen: My pleasure. So, let's talk a bit. You know, I think a lot of the community knows you have some of the deepest, most thoughtful, takes on the THORChain ecosystem, and analysis on what's happening. But let us get a chance to know who you are, give us a bit of background on where you come from, and how you got into crypto.
TehSlaw: I'm happy to make an introduction and first kind of tell the community what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to have a level of domain expertise in the THORChain ecosystem that is valuable to me, and hopefully, the whole community as well. And this is a reprise of my initial career. I started in 1987, on Wall Street as research analyst, developed such great domain expertise during that timeframe that I was able to start and build my own investment bank around that. That domain expertise, it focused on financing mortgage companies. So in 2007, early 2007, saw the world was gonna end and sold that enterprise out. Since then, I've done a lot of consulting for my old clients in that ecosystem and fell into crypto in 2016. It was kind of inevitable for me, I felt there was just something about technology and the computers and all of the novelty and innovation that was going on.
0xNguyen: Do you remember how you first heard about crypto?
TehSlaw: Well, crypto would be written up in the Wall Street Journal, especially when it crashed, you know, and there was a guy, daily chart package. And he'd often threw up a Bitcoin chart. And so in 2016, there was probably a day where it had crashed. And I knew well enough that I could open up a Coinbase account, and I just bought something that could have happened three years earlier. But it just had to happen. And kind of that way I got bored, I guess. And the next thing you know, I'm deep down the rabbit hole, I have, you know, coins on Binance and shuffling things around. And as an old research analyst, I really wanted to get into the projects themselves and understand what was going on. And it amazes me that you can see what's happening in real time, because it's all in the blockchain. It amazes me the access you have to the project managers, and the lead developers. So it's as if you can talk to the CEO on any particular day. So these were were attributes of being research focused, you know, investor that were shocking and valuable.
0xNguyen: Did you understand crypto immediately when you first heard about it? Or what was your first impression?
TehSlaw: I'm sure I've watched several YouTube videos, I think there was a series done by New York University's Stern School of Business. A professor did a series that was very valuable, I seem to remember. And and then you just start reading white papers and getting into communities and asking questions. And then there's always some aspects of this that are learned by doing so you're just kind of throwing things around and see what happens. So I think everyone has falls down the rabbit hole, as we say, in crypto land, you know, the question is, you know, how did you fall down the rabbit hole? We all do it a little bit differently. But that was kind of what what drew me in was just the accessibility of all of this information.
0xNguyen: So you start trading coins on Coinbase. And then you got into by Nance. And at this time, have you totally departed from your previous career in traditional finance. Is this your beginning foray into crypto?
TehSlaw: It might be beginning foray into crypto, I still have a fair amount of activity going on in my old career as a board of directors of a publicly traded company, for example. And these keep me on top of what's going on in the capital markets. So, you know, I'm reading all the macro commentary that you can get on Twitter, just as I'm reading all the crypto commentary and just trying to be savvy in one market, my old market and really kind of intensely focused on this new market. And when I say intensely focused, you know, maybe you step forward from there. It was like September, October 2019. I wrote my first thoughts, you know, my first Tweet and I forget who touted it on on Twitter, but I'm sure it was a tout on Twitter. I think it was CryptoBobby, but I don't remember. And, I was just in the mood to find some new stuff. Yeah. And so here I am trying to figure out now how to use the Binance chain and finance that organ. And it was kind of crazy, but I bought some.
0xNguyen: Do you remember at the time what the market cap was or what the price was at the time?
TehSlaw: I think it was eight or nine cents at the time. And remember, you had to stake it and you got like 1% a week or something for staking just in that wallet. So to say it was nine cents was to ignore all of the coins received simply by having a stake. I remember later that year would have been around Christmas time. And you know, the Star Wars movie had come out. And I was there to go see the Star Wars movie and the price crashed. So I'm walking out of the Star Wars movie trying to figure out how to install trust wallet onto my phone, and then how to set that up. So I can go buy THORChain you know, the $rune token on that day instead of watching the movie. So that that was very memorable. So and now all throughout 2020 the projects being developed is being developed at great speed, you can really get a sense of how how it's coming along. And by the summer of 2020, it became obvious there wasn't an MVP, they were not able to take their product, especially with high gas fees that had so my capital was in funfair, there was a pump and dump which was very convenient. And next year, I had some real walking around money. So a lot of that went into $rune and the other the other investment pieces I had was derivative DeFi.
0xNguyen: When you first see Crypto Bobby talking about THORChain on Twitter, wherever the source was. Do you remember your initial impression of THORChain? Do you remember if it struck you immediately or if it was something that you came to admire later? What was your first interaction?
TehSlaw: I was one of the early participants in Uniswap. I approached crypto as kind of learned by doing things. So a lot of times, I'll just kind of wander over and try it out and see what happens. And then try and figure it out after I have enough real experience to map a white paper on what's really going on. So THORChain made complete sense, because I had been playing around with Uniswap so early on. And it was just obvious to say this is just Uniswap across chains. And that wasn't a hard insight to reach. One of the things that was interesting, though, was figuring out how technologically daunting that power undertaking is. And that's one of the things that I think people don't appreciate. And it's one of the aspects of THORChain that gives it its business model.
0xNguyen: 100%. And you can't force the community, you can't force the integrations, you can't force the brand. You obviously come from the financial background, but how much understanding do you have on the engineering and the technical side of things.
TehSlaw: I know enough coding that, you know, that I can look at things from the perspective of having written software. But when it comes to engineering, is something that's more than just code that's written. That's where my knowledge kind of ceases. And I have to make inferences and rely on other people to explain things to me.
0xNguyen: You talk about the technical differences, the technical challenges of building a cross chain exchange, like THORChain versus Ethereum, for example, only decks like uniswap. Can you shed some light perhaps on why, something like THORChain, why is cross chain so much harder than just like single chain decentralized exchange?
TehSlaw: The way I look at it is every new chain, you add an operational dimension, because you have to have a node on that chain, or every node inside THORChain has to have a node on these other chains. So they can observe the state and execute transactions, and be able to communicate all of this information throughout the network itself. And each one and we just saw this with the challenge that the THORChain router had yesterday. Well, each one of these chains has their own areas of nuance, a weakness, but you know, novelty, and sometimes there are bugs or challenge. So every time you add a different chain, you add a new layer of technical challenge that can create headaches. So you know, it is I don't wanna say geometric and in terms of operational complexity, but probably more than arithmetic.
0xNguyen: Yeah, I'll add on to that as well, just from some of my understanding is, you know, if you're going to build a single chain, decentralized exchange, like Uniswap, or SushiSwap, they don't need to create their own network validators or miners that better securing the network, they can exist solely as smart contracts that run on top of an existing L1. And so something like SushiSwap from what I understand, you know, they're the core infrastructure Uniswap is 2000 lines of code like the core amm structure, and then you're dealing with tokens that are all running on the same standard inside that same ecosystem, it's comparatively very straightforward. And that's why you get these literally overnight forks of decentralized exchanges within the Etherium ecosystem like Uniswap to SushiSwap, or forks that take it to other ETH compatible chains like PancakeSwap on Binance, smart chain. Whereas with with THORChain, you know, you can't build a decentralized exchange that sits just on one chain, this thing needs to be its own layer, one chain that integrates and is interoperable across multiple blockchains, you need to build up and incentivize your own network of validators that are observing transactions on other chains and then executing outbound transactions across chains, they're securing assets on other chains and then you need to work out this game theory. So you just start from a whole new foundation and so from what I understand, whereas Uniswap's core infrastructure is 2000 lines of code, THORChains is 100,000 lines of code.
TehSlaw: That's a great perspective and I would kind of offer it this way. THORChain has to be its own network as you describe and SushiSwap sits as code on top of already existing network so it relies on that network to execute its code. THORChain has to be its own networ also, and that infrastructure and burdens just so much more significant.
0xNguyen: Absolutely. Okay, so we got a little bit derailed on a tangent here from your story we stopped we talked about you got into Funfair up and down you got sounds like you got out on a high and we're able to out reallocate that into THORChain that takes us to like mid late 2020 and and yeah take take us to today what I'm wearing from from Funfair to THORChain today, what does your life look like?
TehSlaw: So one of the things that I think a lot of investor oriented crypto people try to do is work through newer projects to see if you can get them at a younger age where the market cap is relatively small. And you know, just like THORChain had done for me, you know, it went from nine cents and the next you know, is listed on FTX and I don't know it trades to 30 or 35 cents and then it probably has a run for like a buck 50 and that comes down to 60 cents or something I'm not remembering all the details. But at a certain point in time when you bought something at nine and it goes to $1.50 you're like I need to do more of this. I want to find more of these things. And so here I am and the second half of 2020 particularly Fourth quarter and even in the first part of 2021, you know, exploring this notion of derivative DeFi space and yet THORChain keeps executing, keeps delivering, they finally get multi chain up and running, you can just see it right there live in real time. And next thing you know, there are all these other ecosystem projects that start, you know, to be talked about. And my attention kind of shifted back towards THORChain to the point where it's, I don't want to say exclusive, but its predominant. And in many respects, I think of THORChain today as that next small cap gem that I'm looking for. And somebody might say, well, it has a $2 billion market cap, you know, small cap gems have $20 million market caps or $50 million market caps. And I think that ignores the addressable market of THORChain. And that just ignores you know, based on how many billions of dollars of value end up in the network, and maybe some of the small cap gems grow from 20 million to something big but I think our risk adjusted return here is much more obvious. One of the best opportunities arise so professionally, this is where I am this is where I'm trying to spend a lot of time kind of knowing the projects knowing people in the community.
0xNguyen: When did you make that transition to like focusing on THORChain and $RUNE more full-time?
TehSlaw: Probably anyone who looks at crypto, we understand that there's kind of this firehose of information and on crypto Twitter, you see it all the time. It's easy to follow the next thing you know, you follow too many people and you can barely keep up with the news and then you got to figure out who to delete from your feed but it is just information and information and information. And as a research guy, anytime there's a link to a post, I'm probably going to go read it or at least scan it. And so you have to pick where you're going to focus because you can't keep up with it all. And if you want to understand it, you have to spend time with each new projects as well. And eventually everything else from my perspective got crowded out and I focused on THORChain.
0xNguyen: I've been full time in crypto for since 2017-2018 for the most part. And my focus was scattered. I was you know, I had contributed to the, to the THORChain project from before launch in 2018. But at the time, it was one of multiple clients that I was working across. And it's impossible to keep up with everything that's happening in the crypto space and it's kind of maddening, not maddening, but like manic, you know, there's just so many developments in DeFi and Ethereum and then in NFT's and then in everything else that's happening. And especially if you had a bull market, you know, price action on top of it, it's truly manic. And I found for my sanity, that to simplify, to reduce, and to focus. You know, it was just a healthy approach. And so THORChain satisfies. I think something that's unique to THORChain and unique to the RUNE token is world class value of crural. I think not all tokens are made the same. Not all tokens are designed to accrue the same level of value based on the growth of the network, sometimes it's, you know, nothing against them. But like, you know, if it's simply a DAO governance token, then you're really writing the brand name as much as possible. I mean, I don't know how often I'm gonna be participating in DAO voting structures, it's just not how I engage. So, you know, percentage ownership of that network, you know, it doesn't really accrue the same amount of value. And in the RUNE tokens utility in the network as the security deposit for nodes, and as the, you know, the base pair liquidity asset that LPs have to provide.
TehSlaw: I think I want to start using a newer expression for that. The RUNE token is this settlement currency that exists across all of crypto. That's as the base pair and all these LPs, that's what it functions as and you know, it also functions to secure the rest of the network in terms of creating a bond. But really, it's just there as a settlement currency for any cross chain value transaction. I'm still kind of thinking about this. But I think there's something worthwhile acknowledging that, that's what it does. Because, you know, we talked about what is going to be money in a crypto economy, and being kind of the settlement currency might not get you in that conversation, but you'll always be right near that conversation.
0xNguyen: I agree. And, you know, it's a different utility than just, you know, money. It's kind of like that, it's like, you know, you might, you might need your ID card to go around the state or to go around the country, but you're going to need your passport to get to another country. And so it kind of plays that role. I like that settlement, settlement currency. The other I snuck this in there, I'm not sure if you picked up on it. But I, I've been using the term security deposit. And, because bond can mean even in financial markets, like a bond means something else. And, and so like to bond is like an action, like a verb. But a bond is a noun can mean like a liability that that a corporation takes out. And so it can be confusing there. And it's just not accessible to normal people wears a security deposit, you know, this is your security deposit, it acts a lot. Like if you're renting a house or renting an apartment, and you put that in a security deposit, it can be slashed for bad behavior. Now, unlike security deposits, these security deposits, these bonds in the THORChain ecosystem, they have some superpowers, they accrue value as the network grows, and they also pay off, they throw off yield, you know, and their yield bearing deposits. So I'm sneaking that one into my THORChain one on one friendly introduction, authority and guide.
TehSlaw: I think we missed when we start saying friendly here is that they're trying to create a whole setup where these what are we talking about security deposits and settlement currencies, that's all abstracted away. You know, a lot of people are just going to do a swap token A for token B, or they might deposit in a vault learns metrics, right? And THORChain doesn't want there to be too much. mentalization about those activities because it discourages use, people should just understand it works. And that's what they do. And they won't have to know about any of these things we're talking about. And so what what we're really doing and when we say introduction to THORChain is introduction introducing THORChain to the people who want to know about how it works. And hopefully that is, as an audience that doesn't need to grow, you know, dramatically we need the audience of people who use THORChain and don't care how it works to grow dramatically. And the processes are trying to engineer right now.
0xNguyen: I wonder if there is a disadvantage now. I mean, you're you're actually making me ask this question. Is there a disadvantage to watering down or or simplifying these door chain models like like I showed you a teaser. For anybody listening, I'm preparing like the what I'm calling a working title a friendly introduction to THORChain that's more accessible to non-technical, non crypto savvy listeners. Is there a disadvantage there? Do we do we want to for some aspects of this like like what If this drives demand for RUNE, this hypothetical would drive in demand for a RUNE that's not being bonded or LP, but it's out of network. Is that a disadvantage to the network? Is there any downside to more or less technically savvy or technically inclined people knowing deeply familiar or not deeply, but, you know, familiar with THORChain on some level?
TehSlaw: I think that if you just think of that, the analogy I might use is investors, some people have a financial advisor, and then it gets savvy enough, they might start kind of choosing their own mutual funds and thinking about asset allocation. And you can go all the way down to the point where they're doing their own research on individual stocks. So we're having a spectrum of users. And for THORChain, and the node operators, and Giga brains are all on one side. And the people who just trying to vault some BTC for interest are on the other side. But many people who start on the easiest side are going to migrate into the system and want to know more and do more. So any resource that helps to smooth that journey is going to be very valuable. And there gonna be a lot of people that make that journey. I mean, but most people who are going to use THORChain don't even know it exists right now. So as long as that you know, stays timely, and is easily digestible. There's a new audience every day.
0xNguyen: Agreed. I think I can share my screen on this. I'll pull up a slide from this presentation. I think I showed you already. So users don't interact with your chain directly. So to use the analogy from email, people don't interact with a Simple Mail Transfer Protocol directly. They interact with the applications that interact with a Simple Mail Transfer Protocol, like Gmail, Outlook, Yahoo, mail, etc. And similarly, for chain people are not going to interact with or change liquidity pools directly, per se. They're going to go through interfaces, like for swap trust, wallet, shapeshift, etc. And so yeah, for most users, especially if we look three, five years from now, if we look forward a few weeks or months, or now trust wallet, xDeFi, they're going to have exchange UI swap UI in the wallet, and users might not even know that they're using THORChain in that instance.
TehSlaw: THORChain is a utility and and just like you pointed out is protocol on there'll be a lot of applications that access that protocol, where and keep that element of that application hidden from the user. So your point is, is very much in line with how they're trying to build out this project. You know, they just want the apps on top, they wanted to be as simple and easy to use as possible. They want people to just be able to, you know, look at their phone and tap a button. And poof, you know, money just got saved or something like that. I mean, they're trying to get as easy as that. All cryptos working on his user experience and, and user interfaces, and there's a tremendous amount of development is going on. And the great thing is with the Thor chain community, is that it can have a number of ecosystem projects so that there's going to be some commonality among a lot of them, but they're all going to be running in their own direction and trying to find what's new. And if they created themselves great. And someone else created First they can copy. But just to have that layer of development frenzy is very valuable.
0xNguyen: That's a great segue into this slide, kind of ecosystem round idea that I had that I wanted to do with you. So I'm going to name some ecosystem projects and then let's riff on how we feel about them. Sound good?
TehSlaw: Sounds good. Yeah, let's talk about all the projects ahead of time, because we're guessing and speculating and making stuff up. Hopefully, we add more speaking to what is going to happen, but but I apologize for errors in advance.
0xNguyen: That's a great point. I mean, like we said making shit up as we go along here. And then at the same time, maybe this is an area of any projects are listening, then you can you can correct us on air or not on air, you can correct us on Twitter, and then select that serve as recalibrating the entire community around because these are all new primitives, new mental models, new products. So let's start with THORStarter. We're started we're both involved in as advisors, so they're, you know, the friends of ours. And we've been on quite a journey here over the last like week or two. Give us an overview. What's your impression of THORStarter and its role in these in the ecosystem? What's your outlook on it?
TehSlaw: So I think one of the places to start before talking about THORStarter specifically is the design team itself wants to kind of turn over a lot of the resources to change the community so that we include the Treasury and money that THORChain control. And one of the things we're are anxious to do is push out the further creation of this ecosystem, you know, into into the community itself. And THORStarter is one of the first projects that really starts filling in a very valuable function. If this is an ecosystem acting on its own rather than approach protocol being directed by the lead developers and THORStarter is first and obviously the venture capital for a lot of these ecosystem projects. And they provide a very unique product for these new projects are coming along, which is all of the was not only say the IDO but the fact that they're standing up liquidity pools with xRUNE as the base pair. Obviously, they're using an ERC token standard that's unique. We just learned about that. But one of the things I think it does is it makes it easier to transact across the THORChain network. And beyond, to chain together a sequence of trades that makes it easy for someone to trade obscure ERC token for something in the Terra ecosystem, and you know, those are the types of things that you want to see evolve. So, for starters, layering in a lot of the infrastructure for that as well. And, so that gives them a unique pitch to any project that wants to develop, you know, they branded inside the THORChain ecosystem, their sponsorship will be valuable to other investors and other community members, they will provide capital in these LPs, these LPs will generate returns both for THORStarter and the project's themselves. So those will be valuable. And then it layers these projects into this cross chain world. So that's why I look at THORStarter. I know, you spend that much time you spend more time with the team than I do. What would you add to that description?
0xNguyen: Yeah, I mean, I think the well, you covered you covered a lot. And I'm actually just digesting this new term that you use, the venture capital in venture capital for THORChain. I think it's a no brainer in terms of all these ecosystem projects, whenever you have, you know, a new ecosystem, with new projects launching on top of it, gathering all of the community energy, because that's really what what these launch pads seek to do broadly, and there really isn't a better community than the THORChain community. And you take that, and you bring it together, and then you give that community early access to some of these projects that are going to launch into this exact community. And that's just a no brainer. But then, you know, when Compound originally came and shared, the idea with me back in, it was really recently just in April this year, you know, we wanted to think through like, how do you make a we don't want to just make a same old launch pad that everybody makes. What is unique to THORChain? And how would we adapt the launchpad model? How would we leverage THORChain's unique features to create a launch pad that was unique? And yeah, I like this idea that, you know, it allows cross chain exchange, cross chain swap and liquidity. And that's something that the word starter can do as well. By pooling with these like, you know, like you said, obscure longtail assets on external dexis and external amm like Sushi, eventually, maybe a Bep-20 token by Binance in PancakeSwap, you know that could be in the future. I think that's, I think that's a great, powerful use case that I think everybody's going to want.
TehSlaw: One thing that you said, which is leveraging the community and one of the things that if you think about a token, and you're a finance geek, you realize that this is a new way of organizing people. That's different than say setting up a C Corp is different than equity is different than bonds, and it has a whole dimension to it. That will change the way a lot of organizations come together. And one of the things I think that THORStarter does is that it can be part of how the community itself participates in the ecosystem growth. It is there really early on, you know, we all know about, oh, you know, there was a pre sale, and it happened at, you know, five cents, and then there's a listing, and it happens at 50 cents, and then the bots come in, and you got yours bought at $2.23. And you're like, well, what about the dudes who, you know, bought it much cheaper? Why can't I be one of those people. And I think THORStarter really democratizes that for the enthusiasts within the THORChain ecosystem, and every enthusiast, it probably already is part of the accumulated position. And if we see some of these subsequent launches, provide great economics and hopefully run a little more smoothly, you know, it'll be just be comfortable to have this, as you know, I own my RUNE, and I own my xRUNE. And I don't some of the other tokens as well. But you know, that's how I'm invested in the THORChain ecosystem, you know, you just start with the first two and, and the rest is kind of elective.
0xNguyen: Yeah, I wanted to also highlight something that you pointed out in a Medium post that you'd written, which is that the THORStarter and the extra token actually fills in a vulnerability hole in THORChain, in the broader THORChain like primary core THORChain model. And that is that due to limitations in or not limitations, but due to certain features that THORChain offers, including impermanent loss protection, due to the fact that they need to work with sufficient L1s of sufficient volume and decentralization, they need to work with L2s that have sufficient sufficient volume and depth so that there's no risk of rogue pool, there's no risk of double spend transactions on L1s that they integrate with THORChain cannot pair and cannot pool all assets. Yet, it's conceivable that all assets will want cross chain exchange and liquidity. And so if THORChain couldn't satisfy that demand over time, that could lead to another competitor coming up, and displacing THORChain. And so with XRUNE pairing with with XRUNE pairing with like obscure or like small to mid cap assets on other dexis, and then completing this liquidity relay or function, as they call it, it kind of closes the gap on that, on that on that kind of weakness in the THORChain ecosystem. And I think that's a big competitive advantage for THORChain.
TehSlaw: And, one part of that, and it's very clear that it's going to persist as a part I think, is that one of the deepest pools on THORChain will be the extreme cool.
0xNguyen: That's amazing, by the way, I, just two weeks ago, or three weeks ago, when I had the interview with cCmpound, you know, for the for the first RRUNEBase interview, he was like, he said that it was, it might have seemed ambitious to kind of get as deep of a pool as a Ethereum on THORChain but they think that is possible. And it's like, very quickly, I mean, I think it's, you know, the, it's the second biggest pool, I think Ethereum might be at 16 or 20. mils, somewhere in there. And then XRUNE is at 24 mil, and then Bitcoins at like 28 at 30 mil.
TehSlaw: So let's say XRUNE manages to remain in the top five pools on THORChain. Just think about what that means for what XRUNE and the token might accomplish in terms of price action, regardless of what else they they did with the bonds and how successful I was investors, but yeah, their challenge is going to be, in some respects, stitching together deep liquidity in many ecosystems. So in the Ethereum ecosystem, they need to have a good pool, in THORChain, they need to have a good pool, wherever else are going to be next or at a good pool. And that's going to be the routing avenue for a lot of transactions.
0xNguyen: Yeah, oh man.
TehSlaw: Yeah, and then we got to talk about who's doing the routing, but that would be another project, I'm sure.
0xNguyen: Yeah. So let's, by the way, this is I just want to say this is awesome. I'm having so much fun here. So thank you.. So okay THORStarter, XRUNE routing, and the aggregation will be done at another layer. Let's talk about that. So that begs THORSwap. THORSwap is as you and I know, as we know, we're they're going into a fundraising round now they're looking to get ready for their they got the THORTicker coming to market. So how do you feel about THORSwap? Have you seen that they are circulating a deck? How do you feel about the deck?
TehSlaw: I've seen the deck and that funding round, there was a lot of good sponsorship for it, as I understand. So they probably upsized it and raised their price if, if what I heard was correct. And now they're, they're building furiously, if you look at their website, you can see how it changes literally day after day. And I think one way to think of them is along the lines of one inch, except for their product is going to be cross chain. So it's a superset of the market that one inch is addressing, and whether or not they build some of the infrastructure themselves, or they partner with other protocols, you know, the idea is to just make it so that you can pull up THORSwab and your two random tickets, and click trade and is done. Now, when you're going across chain order, we'll see how much the expenses are for all of the all the transactions, but I have a feeling once you're outside of Ethereum, and high Ethereum gas prices, the expenses themselves won't even be too much of an impediment. It's just trying to keep the interface connected to all of those L1 and L2 chains so that, you know, people don't have to worry about how to get assets from one place to another. It just happens.